Monday, 22 October 2012

Predestination and Freewill: Ours and God's

I don't believe in god; ALL of the following is just contemplation.

I like the idea that: for God, the past, the present and the future do not exist separately; everything is present to God.

The idea of a god that could possibly have created our universe being truly omniscient (as in knows the future as well as the past and present of all) is marvellous in theory, but to see eternity and infinity all at the same time seems difficult as it requires infinite computing power (as in infinite time to relocate and process information). I suppose if god is everything that ever was this is possible; we could talk about an omniscience that predicts the future perfectly, well at least for a certain relevant timeframe, and therefore has the ability that you demand of this god, but would still be a living in the present power.

For a god to know all of its states in time (configurations of the matter of infinite existence at all points) how is this mind linked? Linked by time itself; by the physical? How is it possible for information to pass from the infinite recesses of the eternal future to the infinite recesses of the eternal past? It would have to be instantaneous, but for any given data for say the present, to access any data from say any point in time in eternity it could take an indeterminate amount of time to search through the mind's pathways/databases? How also is data exchanged between physical areas of the universe. There would have to be, again, some kind of instant access (entanglemnt). But if the physical realm is infinite, how can algorithms not spend all their time searching. How would this neural net work/run?

If there is a god (deistic) that is everything it therefore follows that we are part of that all and part of god. Therefore every action we take is within god. I don't have any issue with this concept running in tandem with free will. In such a scenario we are composed of matter which god makes up, and his orchestration of said matter is in such a way as the universe takes on the properties that it does. I see no distinction here between what atoms do and what humans do. All our actions would be under the umbrella of god, whilst our freewill is maintained so too is the will of god as he wants things, and designs things, and in fact orchestrates things to happen exactly as they do. He would want us to have freewill so we may be inventive and evolve, yet this is his design. I personally don't see a logical corrollary incepting from the idea god knows all of eternity already. I would assume that god isn't omniscient entire, as in knows the eternal future, but instead is able to calculate the future as he runs everything from a base bottom up level.

So in conclusion: To say there is a conflict between freewill and god having complete control of what makes up the universe is false if we all are (part of) god.

If there was such a complex god you can be damn sure he has a plan (predetermined goal) so I don't see an issue. Whether this god knows all the eternal future, or only what extent of future he can compute (say 5 billion years into the future in lieu of a final goal for the universe) then I would say that is pretty well predetermined?

If god is the organisation inside of us, the design that drives matter forward by his carefully weighted laws of physics etc. and also maintains and computes all physical interactions within the universe (namely us and our freewill) then his existence splices nicely alongside freewill. God's freewill, and our freewill working in sync. Just one way it could work . . . 

Suggestion: God is our freewill. God is everything, from how the universe was designed to every action that now happens; as in god's will has our freewill included within it. No conflict as god's will is always in sync with ours, from bottom up. It is a symbiosis where the freewill of all creatures is the will of god. The decisions are made by both at the same time as the two can't be split.

If you are accepting my premise that the two freewills are combined but at the same time assuming they are not. That is the conflict here. If you accept that both freewills are combined, theoretically, then it makes sense. 

If you are still trying to split the two. They are combined. Try to accept the premise. The very atoms in your body are maintained and orchestrated by such a god; this would be so deeply seeded within us that our freewill is not affected. They are two designs (ours and god's) moving in the same direction. One can change one's mind all day long, that is the design god intends, absolutely. I see no conflict; just needs the premise to be accepted.

If the freewill of god and human is inextricably intertwined, as intertwined as god is with every atom in the universe then this also incorporates predestination too, as there is only one way it goes. We are still free to choose as we wish; we can only choose this or that or this, and that choice is the way it goes. So we are predestined to have freewill. Remember, in the end, we only make one choice at any given juncture/present. Only one choice, which is the choice that we make, moves us forward into our predestined/predetermined future. You could say the choice is made, but at the same time we still make it, because the design is so deep down to the most intricate level that it is all one.

I'm not talking about a god that is related to say religious parameters directly. Whether you think the concept of god would be redundant or not within my context wouldn't change the fact that this god is controlling all. You could say that issues like sin etc. would be redundant as god orchestrates all, and I would accept that the views which are presently pedalled about what god is interested in would be redundant. All this god would be interested in would be for life within our universe evolving to an omega-type point. But we still would have to do it ourselves, with god as an interwoven contributor.

But of course the intertwining of freewills of god and human doesn't mean that god isn't just winging-it as we may also be just winging it, with predestination not included, if he so wished (to be ignorant and just react to what comes; don't humans do a combination of present based reaction and predetermination/future orchestration?). It could work either way because either way the god operates in the present as we do. He would, assumedly, have reasonable prescient powers as he is all, but not eternal prescience. All parties are free to change their minds at any point, as there is only one future (there may be infinite possible futures, but only one actual future that we move through and into.)

I don't think that absolute predestination is possible to orchestrate as the physical world such a god would abide in and be linked to is not capable of working within a neural type framework that would link such an eternal god's faculties together across eternity.

If you choose to kill, it is god and you combined. If you choose to not kill, it is the will of god and you combined.

Assume that the freewill of god and the freewill of you is combined. You can choose whatever direction you want. There are enough people to get the job done that god wants done. If you rot in jail and don't procreate that is yours and god's choice COMBINED. Enough people will make the correct decisions with god, to get where we need to get to. The individual is of no importance in the scheme. We all are part of the game/wave of an evolving race.

Does a shared will repeal the concept of predestination? Or can one only do what one can do? One provides one's own destination?

Would this not happen with god to? The (limited (to a godlike timeframe)) predestination of god working in sync with a limited human predestination?

Does this mean that we would be predestined to live in a world where free will is an illusion? (and indeed ask what free will really is?).

I have to say that I don't agree. The predestination is, I agree, not a concrete, more the discretion of the god and how he wishes to run it, lazily or with more exactitude. The "illusion" suggestion doesn't hold. We are not only individuals within the universe; there is a wave called humankind; it is in god's interest to have some individuals falling by the wayside, in the greater scheme, as all action whether positive or negative creates or forces a positive outcome on the back of human creativity. Freewill of the human isn't effected or affected by the freewill of god because they are one and the same thing. You could say god's freewill is more complex because his predestination skills should be more developed but that doesn't change the fact such a god's freewill is indivisible from our own, we both make the choice that is best for us given: the circumstances, the neural pathways in the human brain, past experiences, predictions of the effects of the decision, yadda yadda. When god IS us; when god IS everything we are made of (indivisible physically down to the most basest of constituents of matter), one cannot in all reason expect the freewills of the god and the individual to be divisible/separate-able.

Decisions on what we believe would happen if the freewill of god and all the freewills of the universe, indeed every single atom moving etc, were one, could differ. But if one can accept that these things could be one and the same then this would mean a joined universal freewill.

If we are to question the concept of freewill itself from a purely philosophical perspective (not the physical perspective I am presently working within (my premise)) then that is a different conversation: as in we don't have freewill because we are just atoms/molecules/synapses reacting as they are designed to(naturally or by god) and so we have no freewill. But I would apply this to god as well. For the type of deistic god I am referring to is also composed of the physical and would be subject to such an interpretation of freewill. As in if we have no freewill, so god also has no freewill, because we only do what the nature of what we consist of can do when challenged in any given situation.

This thought process for me is a learning/defining experience as it is questioning my theories/ideas of god in ways I haven't thought about before (new territory). So the step by evolution of my conceptualisation here is a work in progress (hence the ranging/developing semantics if there is any). Also I am trying to tempt people into making the step across this specific logical barrier/impasse as a thought experiment, by appealing to their conceived axioms in lieu of remoulding their thoughts along the lines of how I see it, not as a definite explanation but as a plausible possibility for All.

Ie: In descriptive terms sometimes it is necessary to emulate the POV of the other side of the debate to draw them into your POV. There are many ways to define the same process, when different views are taken:

I could say that god has freewill. A human has freewill. But both are the same will as they are combined, without confusing the matter. I myself do not believe this to be an issue; or in fact a definite, just a possibility, so these conjecturalisations lend themselves to exploring best ways of concisely defining terms ad hoc.

What if I said that one cannot "combine" things that aren't by nature separate. Isn't it just more concise to say that the will of a god is an abstraction of the collection of all wills? And so not leaving the question of individual free will in doubt. 

No, I can't wholly agree with the abstraction description entire, as it implies the will of god can only be equal at most to the sum of all wills? I would say that the will of god/creative-source is the will of people (whole universe's collective will sentient or basic (physical properties etc.)) but also the will of god is more than the sum of all within our scale of reference (which I could explain further but it eats into my work in progress).

I see the will of the creative source (god) as one that orchestrates all movement within the universe down to the finest degree, but is also a whole sum more; and farther ranging in scope than we could possibly envisage in any detail. I do not see the fact the will of god is a whole lot more than the sum of all wills and computations of matter interactions etc. as anything that eats into the ability of any one individual or limited-collective to express their freewills in anyway they see fit. The framework is supplied by the creator, is the creator, and we are free to will whatever we wish, but obviously the framework we function in is a limited one at present, until we can evolve to the point of omni-like orchestration over this framework.

But of course we could go further to say that the limits of the human physique and mind are direct restrictions on our freewill. Are we free to move outside the atmosphere of the earth without a spacesuit? Some could say this is possible in the future. So is the restriction time related, as in I won't be able to enact this feat within my lifetime, therefore I don't have freewill due to these out of my control restrictions? Freewill of a human is limited by intrinsic nature of the framework of creative source, freewill of creative source is limited by intrinsic nature of protomatter/infinity. But freewill of human is FREE within limits. Freewill of god is FREE within limits. So freewill is mutually exclusive, and also one.

So the collective of all life and computing of matter within the universe constitutes the free will of god, at the same time as the free will of god constitutes the physical realm as they are one and the same, indivisible:

Without humans/Life having free will, as in the opportunity/facility/framework (Laws of Physics) to develop free will,  god would have no freewill . . ? (something to think about at least).

What I find great is that for me the direction it moves in is out of the control of god (teaser). 

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